Posted by Ann on August 20, 1997 at 20:12:42:
In Reply to: Re: Anti IRS info posted by Common Right Group on August 11, 1997 at 20:08:19:
: : I am currently challenging the IRS with Irwin Schiff's system.
: : (see www.ischiff.com). Please provide me with any proceedural
: : steps I should take in filing a "ZERO" tax return, plus any
: : steps I should take in confronting the IRS about charges of
: : "frivilous" returns and associated penalties. Is Irwin Schiff's
: : system legit? Do you think it's the right way to go?
: : Thanks
: : Jim Thompson
: Jim,
: We don't recommend filing "Zero" tax returns or "exempt" W-4's or any other IRS form unless you are a taxpayer as that term is defined in the Internal Revenue Code. It's a trap. Not saying that Irwin Schiff is a "trapper." Not at all. We believe Irwin's research and information is correct, but the question is about what happens if you follow his technique and get charged with filing a frivolous return or willful failure to do whatever, etc.
: In the first place, those forms are only for "taxpayers" as that term is defined by law. When using those forms, you are creating a record that admits to and confesses being one obligated to file. You sign those forms under penalty of perjury, which is the second part of the problem.
: We have a tendency to lean a bit more towards recommending obtaining and reading the book by Otto Skinner called *THE BIGGEST TAX LOOPHOLE OF ALL.* Otto's book is available for 39.95 + 5.00 shipping from: Otto Skinner - P.O. Box 6609 - San Pedro, California [ 90734 ].
: We beg people not to read and rely on one single source that looks and feels good. Please read works from many sources, then pray a lot, then act or not according to your ability and wilingness to take 100% responsibility for the result. None of these publishers of "silver bullets" are the ones going to jail if YOU get convicted of something. Of course, the more materials you have, also including the IRS Code, the more you can present as evidence to a jury in your defense as "reliance" information per the Cheek and Long Cases.
: Mostly, we agree with Skinner as to three relevant questions: 1). Is the nature of the tax I'm purportedly liable for one of CAPITATION, PROPERTY, or EXCISES (ACTIVITIES)? 2). If Excises (revenue taxable activities), then what is the revenue taxable activity which I am purportedly involved in? 3). Who made the determination and under what authority that I am one "liable for a tax" upon which your so-called "tax liability" is based?
: Remember, we are not degrading Schiff's work at all. We think Irwin is a wonderful guy and has done a lot for the people with his revealing work. However, we know of many more who have gone to jail using Schiff's technology than have even been charged under Skinner's philosophy. Skinner names eighteen of the most popular "Patriot" arguments used that are usually, if not always, frivolous and off point.
: May we point out that both John Cheek and Lloyd Long used the Skinner argument for his defense, not the Schiff arguments. To wit: "What is the statute that makes me liable....?" Both stipulated that they were obligated to file a return and pay a tax if they were one "made liable for a tax" under the law, and asked only that the law be produced in evidence.
: Don't know what else to suggest. May YHWH (God) bless and keep you in your endeavors and may the Holy Spirit be your guide.
: Bill
____________
Bill, I've read both Schiff and Skinner's materials
..the difference is that you can contact, talk to
and reach Schiff/his people quickly, and they
have lots of "how-to" details, form letters to
respond to "frivolous return" letters, etc.
SKinner's got good info too, but I have to write
him a letter and hope for a response..which is
tough if you all of a sudden get a 10-day notice
letter. Most likely, (per people calling in
on Schiff's radio show) ifyou do his zero return,
you may be okay, or may get a "frivolous" letter
(which he has a form letter for responding to)
or a "we've changed your return" which he recommends
asking for a hearing with them and supplies
tapes, etc. to ask the right questions. Now,
if you know of people who've gone to jail
within say the last 5 years (Schiff acknowleges
that he's gotten smarter since he himself went
to jail) then please, ask them to write in to
this forum and let's hear about the details!
Schiff seems to be a possible "interim" solution,
and provides "hand-holding" which I wish
Skinner had, but doesn't. Schiff acknowledeges
his is the "path of least resistance/safest"
and knows there's nothing forcing you to "file
a "return", but for some reason, they put people
in jail for not filing, whereas (he claims) there'
s no problem with zero returns except that you
might have to go to a hearing to get rid of them.
Also, Schiff does (first-hand knowledge) screen
his radio call-ins, and there's lots of people
calling in talking about how they even get their
money from previous years back they had paid in
thru withdoling, by filing a zero "amended" return.
Now, either he's got lots of actors or paying
people to call-in with phony stories, or there
is something to be said for this zero return,
until we can figure out something better. I have
heard a few "sovereign" folks call-in and say
they went the "pure sovereign" route and had a
problem. Whatever, paying a $500 frivolous
penalty (sic) is better than paying the full
amount, also. Whatever, let's hear more details
and dates about these people who went to jail
using Irwin's methods..I'm very interested and
hope to hear back from you/these acquaintances.
I haven't used anybody's method, so I cannot
speak from first-hand experience.
Ann