Re: An old tax forum, here you will find a lot of what you are looking for.

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Posted by continuation on September 08, 1998 at 07:34:30:

In Reply to: An old tax forum, here you will find a lot of what you are looking for. posted by A friend whos been there on September 08, 1998 at 07:30:03:

From: New kid on the block

Date: 18-Nov-97

John in California - I am new to the site and the string. Good
converstation. After approximately 2 years of home work, I felt comfortable
enough with my knowledge to announce to the IRS I owed no tax because I had
no liability. (Pursuant to the IR code and several other court decisions) I
sent in a Irwin Schift style zero return for 1996. The franchise tax board
for the State of California prompty returned my witholding while the IRS
sent me notice "We changed your return - you owe a tax" (double my
witholding) Now I have to fight this. I am waiting for a friend to recieve
his 6209 which he sent for over 4 months ago. Any success with the feds on
your part? Any strategy for me on my part? I thought about a FOIA asking
under what lawful authority or IRS procedure can they convert a document
signed under penalty of purjury? Shouldn't they just attack me for penalty
of purjury? How do I take the rug from underneath their feet?


From: John In California

Date: 17-Nov-97

Hi: is everyone hiding? Is anyone going to the Irs's open house, to present
problems. Im putting a list of questions together for them, "liability, OMB
number per form, according to the paper reduction act, 0 filing, and ect
lets see what they say. and take a look at their susposedly better image.
How about it guys and gals do the same but bring a tape recorders and
witnesses. Then contact you congressman and reporters with the information.


From: Where is everybody?

Date: 17-Nov-97

Hey, where is everybody?


From: John In California

Date: 22-Oct-97

Thanks Friend,for all your input. By the way have you heard of Devvy Kidd?
She is a California Patriot,who ran for congress here, but lost due to
voter fraud against Wally Heger. She has an organization call Power, that
tries to ,educate the people of government (IRS),(Federal reserve)lies and
abuses. She is Sueing the United States (People v. United States) to bring
out All that we discus here. She needs co-defendents to do this for
information call 916-365-0158. She also wrote Bankrupt America. I hope
others on this site call here, this Lady is a true Patriot and spend her
time educating the populis on want is going on and with the New World
Order, IRS, and at capital hill.


From: Friend
Date: 22-Oct-97

If you use the UCC it is assumed that you are a corporation, an artificial
entity. Probably the best thing you could do at this point is, send them a
correction of records document, stating that you just discovered, that you
were misled by someone supposedly knowledgeable with tax law, wherefore you
made a “mistake of law”, and are hereby revoking your signatures upon any
and all past IRS documents records or things as they were signed
erroneously by you through mistake of law and further you never had
“standing capacity” to sign any such documents records or things and
further you are a citizen of the united States of America and were so
during those particular tax periods, so accordingly, any additional
penalties are being imposed by the IRS without any lawful basis.

Get it notarized and send it off all proper like a FOIA

§ 6654. Failure by individual to pay estimated income tax
(e) Exceptions
(2) Where no tax liability for preceding taxable year
No addition to tax shall be imposed under subsection (a) for any taxable
year if -
(C) the individual was a citizen or resident of the United States
throughout the preceding taxable year.


From: John In California

Date: 21-Oct-97

Friend, You are right about Lynn's stuff. I followed her advive in 95. I
did sign the 1040 with "without prejudic and reseveration of all rights"
Since I have been following this web sit and reading your posts, I have
become better informed and checking everything myself. What do you think if
I just send this notice back "Refused for cause Without dishonor 3-501"
your input is highly respected. Thanks for all your input on this site.


From: Friend
Date: 21-Oct-97

I keep tellin you guys the Lynn Meredith stuff is full of holes, the
remedies boarder on deliberate disinformation. First off, a 1040 is used
primarily for such things (according to the code) as filling a return for
an environmental tax credit. or to file for a return with regard to your
non-resident employees who have happened across the boarder to pick fruit
or whatever for your company. 1040 does not apply to 26 USC §1.1 individual
income taxes, says so right in the omb list!

Second, why in the hell would you sign the damn thing, you just traversed
into their jurisdiction under the wrong perjury clause-

28 USC § 1746. Unsworn declarations under penalty of perjury
Wherever, under any law of the United States or under any rule, regulation,
order, or requirement made pursuant to law, any matter is required or
permitted to be supported, evidenced, established, or proved by the sworn
declaration, verification, certificate, statement, oath, or affidavit, in
writing of the person making the same (other than a deposition, or an oath
of office, or an oath required to be taken before a specified official
other than a notary public), such matter may, with like force and effect,
be supported, evidenced, established, or proved by the unsworn declaration,
certificate, verification, or statement, in writing of such person which is
subscribed by him, as true under penalty of perjury, and dated, in
substantially the following form:

(1) If executed without the United States: ''I declare (or certify, verify,
or state) under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States of
America that the foregoing is true and correct. Executed on (date).

(2) If executed within the United States, its territories, possessions, or
commonwealths: ''I declare (or certify, verify, or state) under penalty of
perjury that the foregoing is true and correct. Executed on (date).

Title 28 Chapter 176 §3002 Definitions:
(15)"United States" means-
(A) a Federal corporation
(B) an agency, department, commission, board, or other entity of the United
States; or
(C) an instrumentality of the United States.

Look the cases up for your self and remember Private Citizens are not ever
“EXEMPT”, they are always “Immune”.


From: John in California

Date: 20-Oct-97

Freind, are you familure with these cases? US v kimbal No 87-1392 DC, No
cr-86-0017 ECR and Us v. Moore 627 2nd 830. as they deal with Frivolous
filing. (putting zeros in all spaces) on a 1040 form. I just recieved a
notice of penalty for such act. I am researching now on how to answer. I
thought I would just dishonor it under the ucc codes. Any sugestions would
be greatly apprecated.


From: Friend
Date: 17-Oct-97

I had a good older friend several years ago who shot himself with a hollow
point bullet in the chest , not just because the VA had been doing horrible
medical experiments on him, but because he was terrified of what the IRS
was going to do to him. Just a few days ago another dear older family
friend past away, to late did I discover that he was under to much stress
for his condition, to much stress caused by the IRS having levied his
“wages” to the point were he had to work himself to death to make up the
difference. I under stand your incentives Hyjack as well as those of tens
of thousands of others. I do not have all of the answers, but I do have
faith in what I do know and so far it has kept me alive.

I have an unedited version of 6209 although the IRS has been playing a new
game called , sure its in the book, and it says that, but but but but your
just reading it wrong? 530 means you have to file a 1040 just because we
say so.

Liar liar pants on fire.

Stand strong in quiet shoes.


Date: 17-Oct-97

Dear friend, I appreciate the good word. You are deffinately a jewell of a
patriot. But I promise you that befor I am all over (my life) I will make a
mark for justice. If possible I will let you know! I have children and if
possible before the end of my life I will make a substantial statement. It
is just amazing how little balls the patriot movent has. It is also so
amazing how we lack a co-hesive plan to make our govement obey the
constitution . Hey I am scared, I am scared for my childrens future and I
am vocal, exposed. but I am educated.W e will try to inform our ellected
official of our soverign rights. At this point in my life ,I will fight the
good fight. Let an IRS agent come to my house to steal my property. I am
tired and and I am mad!I am healthy and but beware because I am getting old
and I will make a statement before I die. I will not allow myself to see my
children enslaved to this corrupt and satanic enterprise.


From: John In California

Date: 16-Oct-97

Hi Freind, The IRS 6209 manual (1994) They blacked out section all thru the
manual citing 5USC 522(b)(7) (E) If you have this manual some of the
sections blacked out are as follows: Section 7 pg 7-2 .04 status code
233-doc reffered to Blacked out,333-doc refered to blacked out no response.
pg. 7-3 433 doc ref to blacked out Section 8 pg. 8-38 the lower pg is
blacked out after tc904, pg 8-39 half pg blacked out to tc 920 and after tc
932 to tc 960. Pg 8-42 .02 mf and idrs collection status codes, tc 12 file
n idrs status 89 and idrs module balance is blacked out. pg 8-44 between
tc30(2) and tc30(70 is blacked out

there is a lot more that is blacked out but would be to long to discribe
here. Some of the cites they blacked out are just words or codes refering
to other codes, I have been able to figure out some of the blanks by
xrefferencing what was not completly blacked out. do you have a manual that
was not blacked out? thanks for all your help


From: Friend
Date: 16-Oct-97

Cancer? are you talking metaphorically? Or within a factual nature. If you
really have “cancer” try “hydrazine sulfate” the Russians have been using
it for years the testament has a very high success rate. Call GREAT LAKES
METABOLICS (507-288-2348 24 hour), which charges $20, plus shipping and
handling, for 100 30- or 60-mg capsules. There are other equally reliable
sources, more information can be found at this address-

Hyjack are you certain these people are selling you out, or are they just
as unwitting as everyone else. $$$ and political associations do not always
equal some kind of conspirators guilt, do not be afraid of this people, for
they are to obvious, its the ones behind the camera whom you can not reach,
touch, taste or feel , those who are truly manipulating the theater that
are the dangerous kind. If you were to drive through a getto some were in a
new car, would you not assume that some of the inhabitants of that place
would be afraid of you in some respect, perhaps because you have something
they feel they could never achieve. It is so easy to point the finger.

find out what it is that these people are comfortable with and stay there
in your conversations, be tactful but courteous. remember the court jester
in the old movies who is always playing the fool, but who secretly is
running everything by giving the king suggestions in such a way as to make
the king think it was his idea all along.

Get the inside scoop and tell others but remain small and innocuous, be
patient, a spook and do not post any more leads as to whom and were you

Take what you compile put together a group of smart well dressed people (at
least 10) and pay a few friendly group visits to local officials, explain
to them with FACTUAL EVIDENCE what you are for and against, do not back
them into a corner, give them tools and confidence that they can do
something about what you want, tell them that you will stand on the street
corner and support them during the next election, move your way up the
political ladder.

Tri lateral commission? World trade organization? Blah Blah Blah, if you
can see it, don’t worry about it so much, remember disinformation is big
business, look at Title 26 for example, just watch out for the thing in the
dark hole, don’t put your hand to far in there.


From: hyjack
Date: 15-Oct-97

Dear Friend, I am a christian (I actually preached the Gospel for seven
years in a county jail ( every sunday with no misses) Had bible study every
Wednesday at an Indian Alchohol Center. I am some one that oviously takes a
cause to heart, What gets me is that we bacame a nation because our for
fathers fought for our liberty. Yet I live amongst and work in the homes of
CFR and IMF board members. (that is no bullshit). These people are selling
out our children . I have actually encountered them in political debate (We
have been yelling at each other) and beent told that I could go to jail for
what I have said. I like the money they pay me, they like my work and they
like me. and I know I could go to jail for what I just told him. Basically
I have the dellemna of liking this guy personally, enjoying the bucks he
pays me. ( I actually believe these guys would see me out of a jam with
then IRS if I asked their help. (I have explained my wall treatments to the
CEO of of one of the biggest companies (he could call the Clinton at
midnight a get him). I t is so subtle how these guys are selling us out. So
consequently it is really hard to ---- em. I know I confused because I know
these people are the enemy and I am making money and they are all the time
selling out my kids, Go figure. Maybe one day I will get it right?


Date: 15-Oct-97

Patriots with cancer sign up now. Leave a legacy. The IMF and CFR
enrollments need to be reduced.


Date: 15-Oct-97

Freind, We just have got to get dying patriots involved in a program to
accomplish what we liberty loving patriots don,t wish to do right now.
Patriots with cancer should form an agenda. We all know that such an agenda
is and will remain target rich. Basically it comes down to the fact that
most of our lives recieve just a few lines in the obituary collume. What we
need is an organization of men and women that want more! 0or children
depend on us to stop this socialist one world movement. We the USA will
become the first country in history to give our soveignty away without
being defeated in a war. Our children have enemies that are trading their
futures for power and money. I can't tell you what to do but a nice a very
sincere letter to my children, and a couple of stong statements to the IMF,
and Trilateral Comission would do.These guys are enemies of our children
and their future. In mthe community of which my children an myself live
there are at any time five or six of these anti- christs living. By the way
I have a tooth ache, I sure hope it isn,t cancer of the jaw.See Ya, Got to
get out on the porch to call in my dog Freedom.


From: Friend
Date: 12-Oct-97

Your children are not doomed, just do not let them get into the system (no
ID numbers) or if they have been assigned a number, never let them sign
anything with that number thereupon in any form whatsoever. Your children
can still go to public school (not recommended) get bank accounts, drivers
licenses , jobs and all the rest without a government contract, as far as I
see it Informed kids have it made in the shade, its the rest of us I am
talking about, in fact the only hope I can see is that in the future there
will be more non contracted, than contracted people.

What we need is a large majority of people walking around who were never in
the system in the first place.

What I have posted is not a run away and hide concept, I have simply
detailed how to survive the big dogs game. If 75 million people would do
what those who created this whole mess do to insulate themselves, the
monster would starve and just plain fall apart. The problem is to many are
still feeding the beast, people do not understand what would happen if
everyone not required stopped sending in all of that withholding and
subsequently stopped filing for a return for the same. They do not
understand were the money goes or why, they do not understand what real
taxes are and how much they are paying (a gallon of unleaded really costs
about $ .42 cents per gallon including the taxes already imposed on the
crude, the rest is additional State an Fed taxes)

I have given seminars for free, helped people and their kids try to escape
this mess, I have talked to people from every part of the country till I am
blue in the face, but the truth is, very few are willing to cross the self
responsibility line, most always want me to do it for them so they can get
on with their cushy little TV world.

Hyjack is right with respect to “dying” no one really thinks all that much
about cancer until they get it. This country has the worst kind of cancer,
problem is everyone seems to be jacked on morphine, with that, if it ain’t
in my back yard it don’t count attitude.

Billy Clinton reduces our military some 15,000 troops, 1 ship and 17
aircraft every month, the Russian army still has 5 million battle ready
troops plus 500.000 special ops troops, 70,000 battle tanks, 430 submarines
and now their own version of a stealth fighter, not bad for a bankrupt
nation. We by comparison have 500,000 battle ready troops, 134 submarines
and other hardware in various states of decline

Does anyone in this country really care? apparently there are a few, but
they are all just terrorist extremists , tax protesters, freaks of nature
and heaven forbid, “patriots”.

Once again please understand what I am trying to say. Put yourself on a
footing where you can not be touched, from this perch you might just be
able to find the path to what you seek.

Think of the French underground during WW II, then think again about what I
have been trying to tell you

Live long and prosper


From: hyjack
Date: 12-Oct-97

Dear "FRIEND" Oviously you have no children. If you have children and care
about the wourld we are giving them. THEN WE MUST BECOME ACTIVIST THAT WE
BEST) I believe untill people start dying once again for the principles
that our country was founded upon no one will pay attention. Our country is
appethetic, and consequently they deserve what they are getting, and when
their children find their sovereignenty gone to a world government so what.
I will stand up for my kids and I will damn sure give them my best effort
to expose a government gone haywire. My children are doomed unless I and
others publically expose and fight for lyberty. Friend never AND I REPEAT
NEVER, suggest strategies for just escaping our responcibilities. Throw
something out there that you believe and encourage citizens in it.
Eventually we have got to get it on. We need to take our strategies and
couple them with visible and direct activism. Every movement begins with a
few martyrs if not more than a few. I am not sloughing taxes I am standing
against a government gone MAD.


From: Friend
Date: 11-Oct-97

Has any one been able to rescind their Social Security number and have it
expunged form all records? I have no proof that anyone has ever
accomplished this feat, and I rather doubt that the GOV. is going to tell
you anyway, notwithstanding you have a legal and moral obligation not to be
part of something that is unlawful, right? So if you present your evidence
and take steps to undo the mistake, and they do not acknowledge your
position, go about your business as though you never had the number in
first place. There are dozens of people running around waving their cure
all SSA surrenders and “DE TAX” philosophy, but to be perfectly honest, all
of it works and none of it works, someone comes up with some new scheme
that works for a while, then proof someone else’s argues it wrong it court
and that’s that.

If you really want out, go talk to the Amish they are the only ones I know
of who are truly out of the system, the point is doing things right is not
about filing some piece of paper, or how you argue some point in court, it
is a way of life you must embrace. Do any of you really know what your
position should be and what your responsibilities are from a Constitutional
standpoint. We as a nation have become lazy and subservient and wholly
deserve the Government we complain so much about, for our lack of
participation over the last 85 years. You reap what you sow, so! what you
gona do about it, change starts from within, from within ourselves and from
within the Government, you would no more attach the Government externally
with guns, knives, and baseball bats, than you would continually thrown
yourself against a brickwall so that you might change your attitude, the
Gov. is We the People, Private Citizen is the highest office in the land so
when things go wrong who you gona complain to? Yourself !

History is not really about wars and politicians, it’s about ordinary
people just trying to eak out an existence for themselves and posterity,
keeping that in mind, the united States of America is not supposed to be
about Government rule and world change, its supposed to be about every mans
home is his castle and kingdom. Do you own your castle, or did you sign a
treaty with a foreign nation to loan you the means to build it, wherefore
they own it. until you pay for it plus interest. think about it, its their
house, so you are living under their rules, you signed away some of your
rights usurping your kingship.

In lue of the aforementioned, Ill bet anyone of you has a SSN paper trail
from here to the moon. SSN surrender? OK what about the vast number of
other agencies you have signed agreements with, wherein the “number” was a
prerequisite for credit or identification? What about your schooling, the
doctor, law enforcement agencies etc..? My experience is this, whenever you
remove the number from one place, it filters back in again from some other
place like some virus.

To make a long story short the only thing you can do is make yourself as
small as possible, meaning no contracts, or other financial obligations,
you have to own everything, if you don’t, you are receiving some kind of
benefit which is a privilege and privileges not inherent are taxable. once
again, close your bank accounts throw away your Visa cards and be small,
the IRS has a term for this “poverty level” so long as you are below it,
they have little or no interest in you. Do all of your financial dealings
through other lawful means (Constitutional trusts, offshore accounts,
Nevada corps. etc.) but above all have no taxable income to report and do
not apply for or receive any benefits.

Live like the law says you are supposed to , and please go back and read
prior posting so I do not have to repeat myself over and over.


From: Franknshine
Date: 10-Oct-97

John in California poses a good question. I am in possesion of a book that
shows how to rescind the SS number and even how to get back either all of
your money or that amount that was deposited after you were vested. I have
also read that Schiff's book and some others tell how to get that special
letter from the IRS saying you don't have to file a 1040. And this one too
claims that you can get as much as 3 years worth of tax withholding
returned to you. The problems is, I have not heard from anyone who has
actually been successful in either if these procedures.

Is there anyone out there who can respond and tell us if it works???

To SAM, the levy notice does not cite 6331(a). It cites 6331(b). Paragraph
(a) states that levy may be made against FEDERAL employees, not you and me.
Its no wonder that the IRS conveniently forgets to cite 6331(a) on the levy


From: John In California

Date: 08-Oct-97

Hi Guys an Gals, Friend got a question, if you can answer it I would
appreicate it. Has any one been able to recind their Social Security number
and have it exsponged form all records? (IRS records for example) I havent
been able to find any requirement that would make it manditory to apply for
a number in any law. Also most of us were given a number because our
parents applied for it. Contractly would this be a ilegal contract and how
do we get out of it. Hyjack, how things going for you? Danny are you still
hangin tough?


From: SAM
Date: 08-Oct-97

Dear Friend, thanks for your imput. Let me ask you about the IRS right to
levy and seize my bank account. Ilost a few hundred dollars . They got it
and I got a notice from my bank. Can I take the bank to small claims court
for that. No court order no warrant, just TAKE. No 6331(a) on the notice.
Who are these crooks and how do I stop them from stealing. Two patriot
friends that have been burnt also have offered to ride around the bank for
a half day. with a Rider truck and one of them sitting on top with a semi-
auto weapon cradled in his arms. This would be noticed by the media and
this bank would recieve some very bad publicity. They don't take care of
customer's acounts. The guy with the gun wants to run for sherrif and this
would be a start of a campaign. We are tired of fed. intervention into our
county affairs. We don't want these agents stealing accounts and property
outside of their jurisdiction. My friend for sherrif is a little blond
haired patriot with neat demeanor. He could pull it off.People are not
threatened by him and he is so personable. He knows guns and he knows the
law and const. rts. Read about it in your newapapers , we are going to get
a constitutional sherrif ellected.



From: Friend
Date: 07-Oct-97

Sorry Sam! you gave the IRS permission when you agreed to the banks policy
which is tied into the Federal Reserve and so forth. You gave the bank a
SSN/TIN and they in turn, gave your vital statistics to the IRS who in turn
gave it to everyone else who has a treaty with them (like INTERPOL). you
will not find all of your answers within Title 26 or 27, you also have to
look in Titles 22, 31 and 42. But all of this is a collection of moot
rabbit trails anyway. Go back and read all prior postings at this site,
writing even a hundred page memorandum will only buy you some time, but in
the long run, it will do you no good if you do not understand how to use
what you have. Knowledge is like bullets in a gun, if you do not know how
to shoot, the gun is of no value and perhaps even dangerous to yourself and
those nearby. I suggest that a study of application is far more important
than throwing about a pile of facts. Get your records, close your bank
accounts, and try to stick to two basic arguable points in court.


From: Sam
Date: 06-Oct-97

I have been assesses taxed owed by an IRS inspector after they went into my
checking account records at my ex-bank. What statute allows them to rifle
through my personal banking account without my permission or a warrant/
court order?


From: Franknshine
Date: 30-Sep-97

In spite of my negative words in my previous postintg, rest assured that I
continue to carry on this fight that I have waged for the past 12 years.
Although "frequent reader" has some excellent points about "attacking the
third party", I really think that writing your congressman is not going to
serve our purpose. Notice that all through these hearings, no congressman
has made even a hint of a statement that the IRS is not really a Federal
Agency. That fact alone leads me to believe that this is all window
dressing for some greater plan.

The third party tactic, however, is quite interesting. I have not file tax
returns in several years. The IRS corresponds with me regularly reminding
me of this fact, but I hold them off citing the law and they have never
actually done anything to me directly. The

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